Jimmy Murray (1 of 2)

Disclaimer: This interview was conducted in 1995 and concerns memories of 1930s life; as such there may be opinions expressed or words used that do not meet today's norms and expectations.

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* Transcript ID: JM-95-039AT001

* CCINTB Transcript IDs: 95-39-19a-ag, 95-39-20a-s

* Tapes: JM-95-039OT001, JM-95-039OT002

* CCINTB Tapes ID: T95-62, T95-63

* Length: 01:33:27

* Bury, Greater Manchester, 9 May 1995: Valentina Bold interviews Jimmy Murray

* Transcribed by Joan Simpson/ Standardised by Jamie Terrill

* JM=Jimmy Murray/MM=Mrs Murray/DL=Mr Murray's daughter-in-law/VB=Valentina Bold

* Notes: First of two interviews with Jimmy Murray; Sound Quality: Good; this interview was originally transcribed in a phonetic manner; the original phonetic version can be accessed through our physical collection - please contact Lancaster University Library for details.

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[Start of Tape One]

[Start of Side A]

[VB tape introduction]

JM: Five nieces in what was Yugoslavia, but is now Slovenia.

VB: Right. [setting up tape recorder]

JM: At one time that was all Austrian.

VB: Of course.

JM: It was German speaking.

VB: Yeah.

JM: So-- there-- I've often said to her, we could do with a [tape] recorder, I said, you could record and send a tape, instead of-- It's hard work with letters! [laughs]

VB: Yes. Yes, it is sometimes. Yeah. I find that too. It's much easier just to speak to people. Saves the cost of a phone call as well if you do that.

JM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

VB: I'll just put that over beside you.

JM: Have you to plug in?

VB: No. That should great.

JM: Oh! It's on battery.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Yeah, yeah.

VB: So that should be great. Erm, I was also wondering if I could maybe ask you one or two questions about yourself. Just so I can get an idea about--

JM: Yeah. Yeah, anything you want, love. Yeah, anything you want.

VB: Right. So, was it here you were born?

JM: Was?

VB: Were you born in Bury?

JM: Eh, yes. Yeah, yeah.

VB: Right.

JM: They started a war actually to get me out of Bury. [laughs]

VB: Really! [laughs] So have you lived here most of your life apart from that time in Austria?

JM: Just the seven year in the forces. We're [bogged?] down again, now.

VB: Right. Can I ask what it was your father did? What sort of work your father did?

JM: Me father?

VB: Yeah.

JM: He was a railway fireman.

VB: Right.

JM: And then [pause 2 seconds] something happened so he went working at the eh local gasworks as a stoker.

VB: Right. And did your mother work herself?

JM: No. No, she didn't work. She just eh, she just brought the family up.

VB: Yeah. How many of there were you in the family?

JM: Eh, two sisters. Had two sisters.

VB: And can I ask what year you were married in?

JM: What year I were married?

VB: Yeah.

JM: Eh, forty [pause 2 seconds], forty-eight.

VB: 1948.

JM: 1948. Yeah.

VB: So, did you meet your wife then, when you were overseas?

JM: In Austria, yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Yeah.

VB: Sounds very romantic that.

JM: That's why I blamed eh, one of the lads I was looking for.

VB: Yeah.

JM: He eh, as soon as we got to Austria, he says eh, "I've got us a job", I 00:03:00said, "What doing?" He says, "As batmen [servant] to the company commander and his eh, and the other one." I said, "Yeah, but you don't know anything about batmen!" He says, "No, but you do."

VB: [laughs]

JM: And it's through him, that I met my wife.

VB: Oh well.

JM: I could kill him. [laughs]

VB: [laughs] A lucky, a lucky meeting, I think.

JM: [laughing] She's a good 'un. [laughs]

VB: Eh, and, does your wife work or has she worked?

JM: No. She's never. That's why she's on the thirty-three pound a week pension.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Because it's not counted as, not working, going out to work.

VB: Right. Of course.

JM: All she's done is brought seven children up.

VB: Oh well.

JM: [laughs]

VB: [laughs] Nothing very much, is it?

JM: Worked twenty-three hours a day.

VB: Yeah.

JM: You know.

VB: Goodness me, yeah. That's the hardest sort of work there is really, isn't it?

JM: [laughs]

VB: Erm, can I ask also if you have any strong political views?

JM: Not eh, not really. I'd just like-- I'd just like the two parties--

VB: Yeah.

JM: In a sense, to get together. And the best ideas from both sides.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Let's have them together and we'll get somewhere, instead of eh, that's the only thing with me.

VB: Yeah.

JM: They should both work together. Like the wartime coalition.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Where they all pooled their ideas and out it came like, you know.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Mhmm. That's about, it that one. Actually one of my, I'm really Labour like. I have to be Labour because I am normally. And eh, just as we were going. The polls happened here, on the Thursday, everybody went to polls. And just as we was going in, a friend of mine were coming out with his wife. And I said, "What's this woman like who we're voting for?" And he stopped, he said, "Eh? You 00:05:00what?" And she were the Conservative one!

VB: Oh no! [laughs]

JM: I saw them again on Sunday, I said, "Mine didn't get in!" He said, "Go away!" [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Go away.

VB: Aye. The only other thing I was wanting to ask, that's not about the cinema, is, because I'm taping this just now em, the tapes are going to be kept in Glasgow University for the time being. And it's possible that people in the future might listen to them to get information about cinema.

JM: Yes.

VB: Do you have any objection to that?

JM: Oh, no. No, no.

VB: Right, 'cause that's--

JM: None at all, love.

VB: Erm, in that case, could I ask you to sign this form, just to say that?

JM: Ah, I will.

VB: To stop you suing us basically. [laughs]

JM: [laughs] Which one do you want me--?

VB: Just to be signed here.

JM: Just here, love?

VB: Yeah. Though I'm sure we won't be saying anything 00:06:00incriminating but-- [laughs]

JM: [laughs] No.

VB: Just to keep the officials happy.

JM: Ah!

VB: I'll just sign it too. [pause 2 seconds] That's great. So that's the sort of official stuff. [laughs]

JM: You're safe. You're not going to be liable then. [laughs]

VB: No, no, that's it. You can't sue us now [laughs]

JM: No court cases.

VB: Yeah. Lost your chance to get that lottery money [laughs] another way!

JM: [laughs]

VB: Erm, so, I mean, as I say, I was really interested by your letter. And, I mean, you mentioned quite a number of cinemas.

JM: Yes.

VB: Round about here.

JM: Yes. Yeah.

VB: Eh, 'cause I think actually I saw the Art on the way up.

JM: That's the one facing the interchange.

VB: Yeah.

JM: At the interchange. That's one, and then, I don't know which road you came, whether you came round--

VB: Was that the one that was the shaky one, that you were saying, with the railway?

JM: No. That was another one. That was, see, I don't know which road the [pause 2 seconds] eh [pause 2 seconds] What road the 471 [bus] comes. [pause 3 seconds] Because, did you come through the town? Or did you come on a circular, on the bus?

VB: Erm--

JM: Wait a minute. I'll ask the wife what road the 471 comes.

VB: It was the 509 I got actually.

JM: 509?

VB: 509, yeah.

JM: Are you there? [to MM]

MM: Yes.

JM: What road does the 509 come out? I'm trying to get the cinema for eh. Does it come Jubilee Way? Or through town?

MM: No, through town.

JM: Through town, that's all.

MM: Down eh-- Down [Boyte?] Street--

JM: Yeah. Oh well, that's the one then.

MM: Is that the one you came on?

VB: Yes.

JM: So then actually you passed another two cinemas.

VB: Right. I didn't notice them.

JM: No. Eh, one was the Regal on your right-hand side. Where all the work is being done. That was another railway station. Well, that was the one that they used to shake everybody out. That was another one but it's burned down now.

VB: Yeah.

JM: It should have been years ago that, it wouldn't have got through on this. It was all wood. Can you imagine the sanctioning two or three hundred people in a wooden building nowadays like you know? It turned into the Palais de Dance [a dance hall] but there were nobody in it when it burnt down like. Ah. That was the eh, that was the other one.

VB: Right.

JM: Ah, it was all wooden. You wouldn't have got near eh-- They wouldn't have let you anywhere near it.

VB: No.

JM: During the wartime, when it was the Palais de Dance, you could have about 00:09:00four hunded eh, people, all dancing away. They were in just a wooden building.

VB: Was it quite, it must've been pretty big then?

JM: Oh yeah. Big. Could hold a good couple of hundred or two-hundred-and-fifty people, you know, at tuppence a time. [pause 2 seconds] Did you like the jam jar one?

VB: Yes.

JM: Ah! Well, that's right.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Ah. Three jam jars. Eh, or one vinegar bottle. For one vinegar bottle you got a penny. And for three jam jars you got a penny. So, if you had any relation they'd to empty the vinegar bottle. Or eh, get the jam out and put it on a plate. You know? Aye, that was it.

VB: How often did you go when you were a child?

JM: Eh, as many times as you got a penny. [laughs]

VB: Yeah. [laughs]

JM: You just lived in 'em, in cinemas like, you know. Erm-- [pause 2 seconds] Well, there was nothing else to do really because you had-- Well, wirelesses hadn't come out then. You know, so. But it was so cheap to go, you know? [pause 2 seconds] Specially the one, you just passed another one, on, on the bridge as you came over the bridge with the river. Well, it's a Kwik Fit, exhausts and things. [referring to the Empire] That was the one, the main one for this area of the, round here. That was the one with the penny and the tuppence admission. You know. But eh--

VB: What was that one called?

JM: That was the Empire.

VB: Right.

JM: And this is where you get the eh, the Empire. You leave the "E" out and it's 00:11:00"th'Emy," "th'Ip," "th'Art."

VB: [laughs]

JM: And this is how you get the-- [laughs] Nobody ever said, "Have you been in the Art?"

VB: [laughs]

JM: "Have you been "in't th'Art?" [laughs] Aye. It was the "th." [Comes out as?] "Th'Ip", "th'Art," "th'Emy" and "th'Odeon". [laughs]

VB: [laughs] Sounds quite affectionate, when you put it like that.

JM: Ah, you see. Ah.

VB: Yeah. Did you have any favourites out of these yourself? Did you have a favourite cinema?

JM: Eh. [pause 3 seconds] Well, I should say this one down here. 'Cause this one, at this end, the Empire, it could change three times a week. So, for your penny, or tuppence, you could go three times a week to that one. Where, some of them in the town charged eh, thruppence, or sixpence. So, they were like a 00:12:00special occasion, them. But here you could do Monday, Wednesday and Friday. [laughs] And perhaps Saturday morning, you know.

VB: Really?

JM: Saturday was cowboy time.

VB: Right. Did they get the films after the ones in town or?

JM: What, eh?

VB: The Empire. Was that-- did they get the films later than the ones in town? I was just wondering when you said it was, it was a bit cheaper.

JM: No, they were eh-- Everybody had a-- [pause 2 seconds] All the cinemas had er eh, a special type of film. Same as eh, the Art would have eh-- [pause 2 seconds] Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy, musical. The Empire would have cowboys. And so it more or less went on. They all had their own brand, in a sense like, you know.

VB: That's interesting.

JM: Ah.

VB: Did you like the musicals yourself?

JM: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah. The eh, we were watching them on the telly last night, that dancing, that River Dance. And eh, I said, "Ooh, my." And then there was one, said, "Oh, Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, them two!", like, you know. Aye. Musicals. Ah, them were lovely them. Jeanette MacDonald, Nelson Eddy and eh, Tom Jones the singer, his father. He was the eh, he was a singer, eh, tenor. He had musicals and eh, brilliant. Then we come to Bing Crosbies and oh! I saw Frank Sinatra's first one when I was in eh, in Iceland.

VB: Right!

JM: With the air force. That was a funny one. About cinemas there. It was eh-- 00:14:00[pause 2 seconds] This station airfield we was on. We had a small American camp and they used to get the films. But it was our cinema. But all it was, it was a corrugated building. Shed, as you'd term it. And that were all right. They brought all the latest films over. They weren't old-fashioned things. They were all the latest. And eh [pause 2 seconds] one or two of them went in and we could go in then. But, in the winter, if it'd been snowing, which it did in Iceland, you'd go in and all the forms [benches] were covered in snow. So [laughs] we had big overcoats. Quilted coats like. And we had to, brush all the snow away, off the seats. And then, we would sit there. The film would be on, it'd still be 00:15:00snowing through but nobody bothered! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Aye.

VB: Ah.

JM: Nobody bothered about that. And then all this about not smoking anywhere. In Iceland, in 1941, there was no smoking in the cinemas.

VB: Really?

JM: And we're just thinking about it now. And eh, they had no smoking in the cinemas. Now, all the forces had loads of cigarettes but nobody dared smoke in the cinema. And eh, they used to have an interval halfway through. All the lights went on and you came out. All smoked as many cigarettes as you could in ten minutes and then went back and started again, like.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Now, we're just thinking about--

VB: Yeah.

JM: Stopping smoking in places.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Ah. Ah that were good 'uns, them two. But the one with the snow, it were 00:16:00pretty good that. Used to sit there snowing on the top of you, but there's still a film on.

VB: Yes.

JM: That's where I saw Frank Sinatra for the first time, you know. They got those films. Ah, they were brilliant. [pause 4 seconds]

VB: Were any of the cinemas round here quite basic? I mean maybe not with the snow coming through the roof but--

JM: Eh, no. They were all eh-- [pause 3 seconds] Well, they used to call this the eh, the fleapit [probably referring to the Empire].

VB: Right.

JM: This one here. I think they call all cinemas fleapits, eh, you know. Aye. They were a bit rough. But what did you want for a penny? [laughs]

VB: Mhm. Yeah.

JM: Well the, the one I was talking about in the silent pictures days. I mean, I must've only been about-- Must've been four 'cause I wouldn't have been in the 00:17:00cinema then, I'd have been at school. And, this lady, she could read and write, our next-door neighbour. Me mother couldn't read or write. In fact, she couldn't sign her name till, erm, till she drew pension, I don't think.

VB: Mhm.

JM: And, the, they used to be talking. And this used to be happening. All over the, all over the cinema, and eh, bags of something rattling and eh, you know, all sorts. Nobody bothered. There were no sound, so it didn't make any difference if you talked. Aye.

VB: 'Cause I was interested as well when you were talking about the music in the cinemas, the pianists and--

JM: Oh that!

VB: Yes.

JM: Oh, they had to have a pianist, eh, a pianist and a violinist. Oh, that was a must. If you'd nothing else, they were on, because if you had a cowboy film 00:18:00and the posse were chasing somebody, you had the piano player going like, like the bells! Oh! He went, he went rattling away like-- like nobody's business! And then eh, when it came to the tear, the tear one, where they had to shed the tears, the violinist came in, ooh, with a vengeance there. Oh! They really went to town. Ah, and they were there every night! I wouldn't say it were a full-time job 'cause at the Castle pictures, she was the florist across the road. She had a shop, just across the road. In fact, I think the shop's still there but eh, because them shops there have never altered. And eh, they were just kind of a part-time, part-time job. Yeah. But they were there, wherever you went. Then they eventually came to the eh-- we had a big organ in that one. But I never saw 00:19:00it played. Nobody ever played the organ. And eh [pause 2 seconds] and then they came to the fancy stuff with the proper organs. The Art, that was a posh place they had, blue plush seats, in there. That's why they charged thruppence you see, because the seats were better. And they had the organ, used to come up like, rise up there and give a recital. [pause 2 seconds] And then we had another one, the theatre, they got one [probably referring to the Hippodrome or Classic]. That was originally a variety theatre and then they changed it to, when variety started dying out, they changed it to a cinema. And they got one. And they had all the eh, all the famous organists came for a week. Eh, Sidney Torch and [Sandy] MacPherson. One or two more came to give a-- at night to draw 00:20:00the crowd and all like, you know. Ah. [pause 2 seconds]

VB: I was going to ask as well, if any, when you say that was a variety place, did any of the cinemas have turns or go-as-you-please, or things like that?

JM: Eh, I think the eh, the Empire tried that.

VB: Yeah.

JM: What they called eh, a joy night, it was-- Wednesday and Friday. They used to put a little bit of what you'd term a stage down and they'd have somebody up. They'd perhaps have 'em out of the audience or, just something, you know, all sorts a little things. Just to do up. They were about the only ones that did that. [pause 2 seconds] That was one what they tried, to try and get more people, continuous cinema. It were alright if you wanted to go and have a sleep.

VB: [laughs]

JM: [laughs] Oh, wartime, a lot of the lads went in the cinema, in the afternoon, to save their self for the night you see. And eh, they'd go in, watch a film, perhaps have a doze or go to sleep, and then they were fit for the night to go and have a drink with their mates!

VB: Right. [laughs]

JM: But with continuous-- the Odeon was the main one with the continuous. You could go in and right-- well, you could have stopped [stayed] there all day till probably morning kind of thing, you know. But eh, couldn't see any joy in seeing the end of film, and sitting through it again. [laughs]

VB: Were you one of these people that has to see it right from the start?

JM: Yeah, yeah.

VB: Right.

JM: Let's have it from the start, like reading a book.

VB: Yeah.

JM: But eh, ah, continuous.

VB: Were there big queues before they had that? Were there ever big queues 00:22:00outside the cinema?

JM: Oh! There was always a queue, yeah, yeah. Aye, there was always queues. And there was two, two shows a night, you know? In fact my eh, I'd never been to a second house, it were called-- we termed it the first house and second house. And I was fourteen before I was allowed to go into the second house. And that was over at ten o'clock. Eight 'til ten.

VB: Right.

JM: Mmm, I was about fourteen 'til the eh, father said, "You can go in the second house tonight!" And I was off down that road. As though I were ninety-five.

VB: Ah dear. [laughs]

JM: I were big lad now! Fourteen years old. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: I can go in the second house! It were only the same as first house but-- [laughs]

VB: But later. Yeah. Did you ever go with your family? Was it--

JM: What the eh, my mother and father?

VB: Did you go with your mother and father?

JM: Not really. I used to just sail off. Me mother were never interested in erm-- Father went occasionally, but he was always working. Took a lot out of his life. He worked seven days a week and all sorts of hours and--. Ah. He might get one day off in three week. [laughs] Times have changed.

VB: Yes.

JM: And he'd perhaps go to cinema that once a time like, you know? But eh, mother never bothered. That left me, they weren't spending on cinemas, that left me to go.

VB: Yeah.

JM: I had to represent them! [laughs]

VB: Yeah. [laughs] Did you ever go with your, with your erm friends? Or was it on your own?

JM: Oh, always had-- always quite a few. In fact, eh, this little one down here, 00:24:00I think it went to tuppence down at the bottom. And there used to be about ten of us, in a gang. And one, eh, he's dead now, lord rest his soul. He were a bit of a boy. And he used to say, "Give us your money." And we have a-- "Have you any ha'pennies?" Somebody'd say, "Yeah, I've got..." He'd get as much copper as he could. Now there were ten of us, and he'd have ha'pennies, pennies. And then we'd all go to the ticket box. And eh, he'd say, "Right. I'll pay for 'em all." And we used to troop in. And as we trooped in, he'd go and throw all this money down. And they'd scatter all over, pennies, and ha'pennies. He'd say, "Eight."

VB: [laughs]

JM: He took a chance but he made four p! [laughs] Four pennies! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: He never got caught, but that were his favourite thing. Girl'd pull-- "Tickets off!" And as we went in, we'd say, "He's got 'em. He's getting 'em. He's getting 'em." And Paddy always took, Paddy D [surname redacted] he were called, he always took this job on like, you know? Aye. [pause 2 seconds] But once you'd got in, we'd eh, you call them bouncers now but we called them 'chucker outs'. And he were called Ernie this one here. He worked all day and then he did this at night. A big tall fella [man]. And this eh, Ernie'd be stood there and we'd all be going, and saying, "He's paying, Ernie! He's getting tickets." But, if you did anything wrong, Ernie were there. "You! Out!" And if he threw one out 00:26:00and it meant we all went! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: But Paddy, he were determined. Aye. Pennies and ha'pennies.

VB: Did you talk about the films much with your friends then?

JM: Oh yeah! Yeah, everybody. Oh yeah. It was main topic a conversation like, you know. It was real meeting place. We had eh, bit of a football team. No leagues or anything, we just played. And you'd been eh, in the cinema, at Friday night. Somebody'd say, "Have you a match tomorrow?" You know, and eh, arrange different things like, you know. Aye. [pause 2 seconds] Then me sister'd, one night me sister said, "Were that you lot? We couldn't hear film for you lot at 00:27:00front!" Somebody'd started and all talk away like, you know. They were sixpennies at back [price of seating]. They were courting couples.

VB: Ah, I see. Was she a bit older than you then?

JM: Well, yeah.

VB: [laughs]

JM: One cinema had special eh, special seats. The Scala, there. They were another way out like, you know. And they had the back row. They'd took arm rest off so it were-- it made one seat for the couples, you know. They could do a bit a snogging on the back seat kind of thing.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Instead of having arms sticking into the other. They were. [pause 3 seconds] Aye.

VB: Did you ever do that yourself when you got a bit older? Did you ever take anybody?

JM: Eh, I never bothered. Well, I couldn't take anybody into cinema. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Never had enough for two! [laughs]

VB: Ah, I see.

JM: We was too busy as gangs. Too busy as going as gangs of about four or five 00:28:00or six, you know. If we weren't in the cinema, we used to go for a walk, all round. Gang of us.

VB: Right.

JM: We never bothered about anything. Aye. But the Odeon, when that opened you could eh, as I say, that were a posh place, the Odeon. They had eh, foam-coloured like, velvet seats. Oh, they were right eh, up. Eh, you could book, you could book your seats and then eh, somebody'd go up and book ten seats. Then we could leave it to the last minute to go in and there'd be a queue, right around. Queuing up to, always queues there were. [pause 2 seconds] Could be no money but we found it for the cinema.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Ah, we did that.

VB: Did the Odeon open up during the thirties then?

JM: What?

VB: The Odeon. Was that quite a recent cinema?

JM: Well it were about the last in Bury actually, to be built.

VB: Right. Yeah.

JM: Mhm. We had eh [pause 3 seconds] Anna Neagle, she opened it. She opened that one, cut the tape. And we had a real character, Frank, Frank D [surname redacted] he were called, and eh, he was always on the beer, Frank. So, this particular time, he got fined for singing in the streets. He said, "What annoyed me," he said, "was," [pause 2 seconds] I forget who the film was-- Say it were Frank Sinatra. He said, "Frank Sinatra was singing inside, and he were alright. I was singing outside and got bloody fined!" [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Ah.

VB: Ah. I mean, it's interesting as well that you say that Anna Neagle opened the Odeon. Was that quite a big event?

JM: Oh yeah! Yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Oh aye. In 'Bury Times' and all over, you know. We didn't go ourselves but, you know, everybody'd turn up to see Anna Neagle, cutting the tape for the Odeon like, you know?

VB: Yeah.

JM: 'Cause she was the star of the Rank eh, the Rank thing. [referring to The Rank Organisation]

VB: Yeah.

JM: See, when they opened the Regal in the [inaudible], that were only one of our beauty queens that opened that. But when you had the Odeon, it was Anna Neagle like, you know. They went the lot.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Aye. [pause 2 seconds]

VB: Did you have favourites among the stars yourself? Was Anna Neagle someone that you liked?

JM: Eh, well general I liked them all like. You had more, for a minute I can't just eh, can't just think. I saw that much.

VB: [laughs]

JM: You know, the comedy ones, the singing ones, you know? The serious ones. Oh well, them were eh [pause 2 seconds] Lionel Barrymore, he was an old-- [tape cuts out]

[End of Side A]

[Start of Side B]

JM: --they'd hold everybody. In fact, my brother-in-law, I think it's Spencer Tracy's Captains Courageous. And he said, [pause 2 seconds] "He's in that film for twenty minutes and never speaks a word. For the first twenty minutes." So I thought, "Well, I'll watch this." And went to see the film and he were right. For the first twenty minutes, he was on the screen and never spoke a word. Yeah. I thought, "Good grief!" Like, singing, in the singing line, it were definitely 00:32:00Bing Crosby. That, that was the one. [pause 2 seconds] And then the musicals, you had your-- Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy and-- [pause 4 seconds] the cowboy films had gone then.

VB: Yeah.

JM: [pause 2 seconds] The big favourite then in the eh, oh, Paul Robeson, he were another. He, he could sing. He was in the first [pause 3 seconds], the first talking pictures, we termed it, in eh, in Bury.

VB: Ah!

JM: The Show Boat.

VB: Right.

JM: The Show Boat. The next one were [Al] Jolson. The Singing Fool. That was a tear one that one.

VB: Aw.

JM: Everybody had to cry at that one. [pause 3 seconds]. Ah. But eh, as I say, 00:33:00you could go from one cinema to another. Everybody had a different, a different film. Singing in one and [pause 3 seconds] all eh, they all had their own.

VB: Yeah.

JM: If you had the money!

VB: [laughs]

JM: By the time you got the money [laughs] [it was too late?] going to films. I don't think I've been to five since we came out the forces, the last fifty year. You know--

VB: Yeah. Do you think films are different now, from the ones they made?

JM: I don't think they're as good, really. Eh, well, of what I hear and what I see, they don't seem to last. Tell you where they show a lot of old ones, in Yugoslavia.

VB: Right!

JM: On eh, Ljubljana television. They're all black and white. But it's all right for me when I go. If I wanted to watch. Because it's English speaking with 00:34:00Yugoslavian subtitles!

VB: Right.

JM: So that's alight, but the films! Ooh, they're in the old black and white. Yeah. Ah.

VB: That's interesting.

JM: They're really eh--

VB: Yeah.

JM: Aye, really old fashioned.

VB: Do you watch the old films on TV here when you get the chance?

JM: Eh, not really. 'Cause we never have the telly on during the day.

VB: Mhm.

JM: Apart from news, to see who's eh, who's killing who and who's doing what. That's all there is! [laughs] On the news like, you know.

VB: Yeah.

JM: My lad loves his eh, he's forty, [pause 2 seconds] the eldest lad, that lives at home, he's forty-five-ish. I'll put him down forty-five, something like that anyway. And eh, "Laurel and Hardy's on!" And he laps it up.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Laurel and Hardy. Aye.

VB: Do you like Laurel and Hardy yourself?

JM: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Yeah. That was another one, the eh, the Marx Brothers. We watched on here one night, on the telly, and eh, one of me daughters was sit here, and she went purple. Her face went purple! I had to bash her on the back. She couldn't get the laugh, out, what she wanted.

VB: [laughs]

JM: It were-- it's a wonder she didn't pass out! She were, she just couldn't get the laugh. And it was a scene from Marx eh [pause 2 seconds] they'd done one. And he's at the dentist. And the dentist, Groucho said to him, "Say 'Louder'"! And he's just opened his mouth. Well, she folded up with this one, and she just went purple in the face and I'm hitting her on the back to try and-- Tears were 00:36:00running down her face with, you know. Never seen anything like it. That was a scene where he were at the dentist and he's saying, "Louder."

VB: [laughs]

JM: Then another, before them they had eh, eh-- What were they called? Moe, [pause 3 second] Curly Moe. [referring to the Three Stooges] I remembered them the other day.

VB: Not the Three--

JM: There were three of them. The eh, comic eh, before the Marx Brothers.

VB: Were there the Ritz Brothers? The Ritz Brothers as well, weren't there?

JM: Curly, Moe and [pause 1 second]. It'll come back to me.

VB: Not the Three Stooges, not the Three Stooges?

JM: Three Stooges! They're the ones! They were brilliant and all, the Stooges. 00:37:00Yeah, aye, the Stooges. I only mention it to another thing that they used to have. I think Mickey Rooney was in it, eh, Our Gang. And I think they based the 'Top Cats' on the television off that. They're like a gang of cats and these were a gang of kids or something. I'm sure Mickey Rooney were the little boss in eh--

VB: Right.

JM: In it. Aye. And he had a little dog. A little dog with a black patch for one eye or something. Aye. Our Gang.

VB: Did you like Charlie Chaplin?

JM: Do you know what, I can just remember eh, bits about him. I just remember The Gold Rush, where he's eating the eh, the sole of his shoe and spitting the nails out like bones on a fish or something.

VB: [laughs]

JM: I never saw his other one, the eh, Modern Times I think it were called. I never saw that one, no. [laughs] See, what was the other one? Oh, another one was eh, in the silent picture time, Dick Talmadge [probably referring to Richard Talmadge]. He was like a, what you'd term, like a Raffles, or something like that. And he'd have a black suit on, with white pumps. For the simple reason, he'd to jump from building to building, you know? So he'd have these, you know, white pumps on so he could jump.

VB: [laughs]

JM: He'd be doing all his own stunts. Aye. Little things like that.

VB: 'Cause you mentioned as well, some of the cowboy things. Tom Mix and people like that.

JM: Oh, erm, Tom Mix was Tom Mix. There was Tom Mix, eh, Hoot Gibson. [pause 2 00:39:00seconds] And eh, just can't think of the other one, for the minute. But Tom Mix was the one. There was one particular film, saw him in, where eh, it was little lad that were ill. He was in bed or something. And Tom had a gun and he could fire this gun and eh, he just opened the curtains or something. And then eh, he could fire it for some-- and he had-- he could fire it all over and do different things.

VB: [laughs]

JM: I can just about remember that one like, you know. Aye. So, like a remote control now, on television! [laughs]

VB: Ah. Sounds amazing actually.

JM: Aye. I don't know what film it were called-- we saw that many of Tom Mix.

VB: Yes. Was that in the serials then? Saturday.

JM: Yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And then the eh, then we had the dog, Rin Tin Tin.

VB: Right.

JM: Aw! We had Rin Tin Tin and all. Oh yeah. That could speak I think. That's the only thing it didn't do is speak! Ah. You sat glued, watching it. Watching Rin Tin Tin.

VB: Did you look forward to the next week?

JM: Oh, these were more or less full films.

VB: Oh right, I see.

JM: These were full films were Rin Tin Tin and that.

VB: Right.

JM: All the others were the serials. Oh my goodness. You had to go and see them. Always finished with somebody falling off a cliff. And then, "Continued next week." When you went next week, they didn't manage to fall of the cliff, they just stopped. But the week before, they fell off! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: You know. Something like that. Ah-- That's where they had the eh [pause 2 seconds] the Flash Gordon. That was a serial that one, Flash Gordon. We all laughed at that. They had eh, all these things what we've got now. They were 00:41:00showing them in these films. Like the telephones now what we have, we were, we could talk to one another by telephone. They had them in these films. You know, and eh, they've come. They've come.

VB: Yeah.

JM: You know. Aye. Ah, everything that was in. Aye. Sci-fi or whatever they called it in them days. Aye, they're here.

VB: Did you like that sort of picture?

JM: Oh, yeah! Yeah. Yeah. Aye, you went to see that every week.

VB: Yeah.

JM: 'Course that came at a time where eh, money was a little bit better like. So you could manage to go in the higher up and go and see that and all, once a week.

VB: Were there any films that you didn't like much when you were a young lad?

JM: Well somebody'd tell you, "That's not so good," so you didn't go.

VB: Right.

JM: You know. Oh you didn't waste your money on them.

VB: Yeah.

JM: That was the thing with the eh, [pause 3 seconds] before the theatre went over to film. It was variety. They used to say Monday night was the night, because people waiting for the second show'd meet them coming out from the first show and they'd say, "Rubbish!" So they wouldn't go. That killed it.

VB: Right.

JM: That more or less killed it for the week kind a thing, you know.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And eh, it all depends on the first show. Whether it really happened like, you know. Aye. "Rubbish." [laughs]

VB: That's interesting. So you paid attention to what other people said about them.

JM: Oh yeah. Yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: I remember one film. Well, we couldn't go in. It was eh, [pause 2 seconds] eh, I don't know how it would go down now. I don't even know what it were about. It was at the Empire, at the bottom. And it was ladies one day, and men another 00:43:00day. Don't know what film were about but it were called The Birth of a Nation. Now, I shouldn't think it would be anything like the films they show now. When they say The Birth of a Nation or anything like that. [laughs] But, they couldn't go in together then. We used to stand across the road. You know, there'd be about eight or nine, watching them all going in. Used to hear, "Ooh! She fainted!" "Yeah, oh yeah. She fainted. Oh, and they couldn't stand it. No, and they had to come out!" I don't know what film were about, but, it were the one of the century I think. Ah. Birth of a Nation. Men only, women only. Ah. [pause 3 seconds]

VB: Were there any films that you remember causing as big a stir as that? Or, ones that were-- that you liked particularly?

JM: No, I can't eh, I can't think there was anything. Not like, you mean, today, where they say like, this film? No, I can't remember anything. 'Course, they weren't allowed to make films of eh, you know. At the moment it's got a little bit too far what they can't and what they can show, but in them days, I mean for somebody to kiss on screen, they more or less say, "Oh my goodness! What's going on here?" You know. Ah. Nobody'd go in for a week! [laughs]

VB: Yeah.

JM: Ah, very strict. [pause 2 seconds]

VB: Were there any of the stars that were thought to be a bit sort of erm, I don't know. When you say like the ones that were doing these screen kisses. Were there any of the stars that were thought to be a bit too much, or--?

JM: No, I don't think so. Eh.

VB: The reason I'm asking is that, I've heard people in Glasgow saying that some 00:45:00of the stars like Jean Harlow were thought to be a bit sort of fast.

JM: Oh, yeah! Not eh--

VB: Don't know if that's right.

JM: Not-- erm-- Well, maybe [inaudible] like Mae West with her, her erm, her figure and everything and eh, "Come up and see me some time" like. You know, that eh, something like that. Or Jane, Jane Russell in The Outlaw. Eh, she had the low eh, the low frock. And the bust. Oh! Everybody had to go and see that. 'Course, this was forces [chat?] like. "Ooh! You want to see that film there." So, everybody had to go to see The Outlaw. Ah. To see Jane Russell. Ah. That was about the most daring one that's ever been I think. [laughs]

VB: Aye.

JM: But now, I don't know now.

VB: It's something else I think.

JM: The television's bad enough! [laughs] Never mind films! [laughs]

VB: Yeah.

JM: Anything goes. Anything, ah.

VB: 'Cause I brought along one or two things that I've come across since I've been in town. I don't know if you ever went, did you ever go into Manchester, to the cinema?

JM: The only time I went into Manchester, [pause 2 seconds, was to see eh, Gone with the Wind. And we went in on Saturday. It was holiday time, I think it must've been August. Or it could've been early September. And eh, as we were walking through Deansgate, there were big buildings. This was, [pause 3 seconds] nineteen [pause 2 seconds] must have been 1940. Aye, 1940. I just 00:47:00remarked to my mate, I said, "Now, I wouldn't like to be here, if there's air raid." He says, "No, I wouldn't, with these big buildings." So, we goes and sits in to watch Gone with the Wind. And it was four-hour film and it was in a cinema called the Gaiety. And it was a downstairs, you went down to it, it was like [in a cellar-type thing?]. And it got to within ten minutes of the film finishing, and air raid sirens. Said, "Jack, we're in trouble here." He says, "Aye!" I said, "Hope nothing happens!" [laughs] And that were the first air raid on Manchester. The sirens. But as luck happened, there were no raid. So, we were stuck in there till twelve o'clock.

VB: Really?

JM: All the trains, the trains still ran and--

VB: Yeah.

JM: You know, to get you home. And the buses and things. But eh, that was our, the only time I've been to a cinema in Manchester. I never went again! [laughs]

VB: You were right [laughs] I think. Ah dear.

JM: About ten minutes before the finish.

VB: 'Cause I found, it just reminded me, when you were talking about Anna Neagle opening the cinema. Eh, this is one where Robert Donat opened one of the cinemas in Manchester. Was he a popular star?

JM: Donat. Yeah, he was good.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Aye, he was good. Robert Donat, yeah. Yeah. [pause 3 seconds]

VB: 'Cause I think he was from Manchester. I've heard he was from Manchester.

JM: I think he was.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And eh-- ah, The 39 Steps. See they had that many at that time. They were [pause 3 seconds] We'd good actors, you know? Like Mills [probably referring to John Mills] and eh, Jimmy Stewart. And all them, but eh, we had to wait. If they 00:49:00made a classic, it was a classic. But otherwise, eh, they made a lot a tripe in between. But the classics were eh, no, nothing to beat them. Same as that, The 39 Steps.

VB: Ah, it's wonderful, isn't it?

JM: Things like that.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Eh, I just can't bring to mind but, whatever they made in eh, eh, in that line. It'd still go down now. And people'd be glued to the eh, glued to the screen.

VB: Yeah.

JM: They could make 'em. All the wartime ones, they were eh, very patriotic like. [pause 2 seconds] We always remember the eh, the Americans that were eh, 00:50:00when the Pearl Harbor came up. We always knew, if ever we saw a film, an American film, what were going to happen and it was--

VB: [laughs]

JM: We'd all waited and they'd all say, "Here it comes. Remember Pearl Harbor." Every film seemed to have "remember Pearl Harbor" in it like, you know.

VB: 'Cause I mean that, on the other side of that is one of the Gracie Field ones I think maybe.

JM: Oh. [laughs]

VB: Was she popular?

JM: Oh by gum! Everybody wanted to see Gracie.

VB: [laughs]

JM: I heard it the other night and I say, "We didn't go watching that, did we?" Listening to that right tinny sound like, what they had in them days. Yeah, Gracie. Rochdale Gracie. Yeah, aye. I heard her one night on the eh, I was in Scotland then. Everywhere I went I went to Scotland.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Or up that road. Joined up and went up to Stranraer. Erm, I got posted 00:51:00abroad. I went up to Glasgow to sail down the Clyde. Got transferred to the army, I got sent up to Stranraer to go across to Ireland. Things like that.

VB: Thanks. [to MM]

JM: I was in Scotland when I heard her.

VB: Ah!

JM: She was giving a concert on the eh, when it was on the radio, Gracie. Something like Vera Lynn did last night, for the troops.

VB: Yeah.

JM: You know. And she were singing, yeah.

VB: That's interesting. I came across some things from Bolton as well. People like Deanna Durbin. Was she--

JM: Deanna Durbin. That was another very, very popular one.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Everybody went to see eh, everybody went to see her. Oh yeah. [pause 2 seconds] Aye. They were very musical the people, them days.

VB: Yeah.

JM: They enjoyed their eh, it'd cheer them up a lot I think, from what they were... working in the mills and all sorts. Ah. She were brilliant. Yeah, yeah. [pause 2 seconds] You got the background music and all with all these, you know. The big orchestras and all the rest of it like. Money no expense with the backing.

VB: Yeah.

JM: It were marvellous where they came from like. You know, it'd happen in a little cinema it's supposed to be, next thing it'd be a big stage with a thousand musicians behind or something like that. Fred Astaire dancing somewhere. Like a little cafe. Fred's finished, he'd be on the big stage. [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Still, you had to think of them or you'd spoil the story, wouldn't you?

VB: Mhm.

JM: You would spoil the story.

VB: 'Cause you mentioned Fred and Ginger there.

JM: Oh! They were eh, oh. Well, we used to-- [pause 2 seconds] as I say, we had 00:53:00the Bury Palais. It was a cinema but a palais. Well, after you'd watched Fred Astaire and Ginger, you wanted to go to the Palais and you thought you could do eh, you could twirl about the same. You couldn't. [laughs]

VB: Aye.

JM: No, you couldn't. No.

VB: 'Cause when you think of these scenes like, films like Top Hat.

JM: Yeah. Well, I've another daughter. She's eh, she's about thirty-ish. And she waits for them to come on, on TV here. "Fred Astaire's on", she used to say, "Fred Astaire's on this week!" Ah. Aye. It just shows. I think the young ones like my lad and that would sooner watch some of these old films than the modern ones. Eh, it's not the same thrill to us cause we've already seen them kind of 00:54:00thing. In fact, we've nearly acted in them! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: We've seen that much, we could've acted in the film. Eh, but eh, they really enjoy the old eh, aye, Astaire and eh, Laurel and Hardy, all sorts. They really enjoy it. [pause 3 seconds] But when you've, as I say, when you've lived in the cinema. You know. [DL enters] This sounds like the daughter-in-law--

MM: I'm going [quiet voice]

JM: Are you off?

DL: See you later.

JM: You all right, pal?

DL: What have you got, have you won? Oh! Sorry!

VB: That's okay.

JM: Have you won? Of course I've won!

VB: [laughs]

DL: Why don't you win when you put my crosses on?

JM: [laughs]

DL: Bye.

JM: Cheers! [laughs] They're off for a couple of hours now.

VB: Ah.

JM: They go to a discount store at Farnworth.

VB: Oh right.

JM: And eh, the store where they go to, and this Co-Op here, down here, they could be as much as eh, forty p [forty pence] on some articles.

VB: Really. Yeah.

JM: Or fifty. And it's a lot a money.

VB: It is. Yes. Mounts up.

JM: Terrible.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Mhm. So they get the car out. She had an unfortunate thing, she's only [pause 2 seconds] twenty. Not that old. Don't think she's thirty, I'm not sure.

VB: Mhm.

JM: There's that many of them, I don't know what--

VB: [laughs].

JM: And eh, she had to lose an eye.

VB: Oh dear.

JM: Mhm. Cancerous eye or something. Yeah. Anyway, we got shot of them two.

VB: [laughs] How many, 'cause you said you had seven in your family.

JM: Seven! Yeah.

VB: How many boys and girls is it?

JM: Four girls, four girls and wife and daughter will murder her! She found this photo the other day. Found this photo. And it is one thing they'll hate. Just seeing themselves. They were all young.

VB: Aw! [laughs]

JM: It was just here. One daughter said, "Rip that thing up!" [laughs]

VB: [laughs] That's lovely. It really is a nice one that actually.

JM: I'll just show you one wedding photo. It's just out there.

VB: Yeah.

JM: I'll bring it in for you. Make a change from film-- [laughs]

VB: Yes. [laughs]

[pause 10 seconds]

JM: This is one of the only few occasions we could ever get them all together.

VB: Oh, that's lovely.

JM: That's took just across the eh, just across the way, back of the houses there. In the park.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Aye. Said, "We'll have a change," he said. "Instead of outside church," he said. And we all trudged down to the park, down there.

VB: Yeah. That's great. So, is that one of your daughters or your son?

JM: They're all daughters and sons.

VB: The one that's getting married?

JM: This is eh, [pause 2 seconds] that's a son, that's a son, that's a son.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Eh, that's a daughter.

VB: Yeah.

JM: That's a daughter. That's a daughter. And that's the daughter.

VB: Right. Yeah I was thinking it must be your daughter. I can see the likeness.

JM: That's one son-in-law, I don't know who-- [first?] ah, one son-in-law, two 00:58:00son-in-laws. He was still around us.

VB: Right.

JM: So-- Now they're all married bar Jim, the big 'un.

VB: Yeah.

JM: We can't get him married!

VB: [laughs]

JM: [laughs] The wife would like it, now all the others are married.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Now, on the top a that now, we got ten grandchildren on top.

VB: Ten!

JM: On top. So I said, "I don't mind them coming, but they bring their mothers and fathers and all!" [laughs]

VB: [laughs]. Ah. They're a nice-looking family though.

JM: They come every Sunday morning about [pause 3 seconds], two or three daughters and a son-in-law and the youngsters come a Sunday morning.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And, as you walked in, "Are you having a coffee?" Well, mother's running backwards and forwards to make coffee.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Coffee for them all. It finishes up with about sixteen cups and glasses to wash.

VB: Aw, I can imagine, yes.

JM: The young ones have eh, dandelion and burdock, with ice cream on top.

VB: [laughs]

JM: They're big enough to make their own now, so.

VB: Right.

JM: But they don't wash the pots! [laughs]

VB: Right. [laughs]

JM: Yeah. They're all, aye. Aye, they're all there.

VB: I can see the resemblance too. Some of them look like you and some are like your wife. It's a-- [laughs] Quite a, you know, two different camps I think! [laughs]

JM: Aye, I've had a few weddings. Six weddings.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Weddings. Christenings. One's got to eighteen now so we might be starting again, on weddings again.

VB: Yeah.

JM: One of the grandlads, grandsons, is playing for eh, he's in the, one of teams for Lancashire--

VB: Oh really!

JM: Cricket club. Yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Yeah. Enjoys his cricket.

VB: Yeah.

JM: They're all sporting like, you know.

VB: Yeah. Do you enjoy sport yourself?

JM: Just football.

VB: Football, yeah.

JM: Just the ordinary amateur football.

VB: Yeah. Did you play when you were a boy? When you were a lad, did you play?

JM: What?

VB: When you were younger. When you were growing up, did you play football?

JM: Yeah!

VB: Yeah.

JM: Yeah. I played right up to about twenty-seven years old.

VB: Yeah.

JM: In the forces and all sorts. That got you out of quite a bit of eh, a few guards or something like that, if you played football.

VB: Ah, I see. [laughs]

JM: A bit of sport, you had to have some sport.

VB: Yeah.

[pause 3 seconds]

JM: Aye. When I watch the basketball on there I think, what were I playing basketball for at five-foot-five-and-a-quarter!

VB: [laughs]

JM: When you got twenty-five-foot!

VB: Aw!

JM: [laughs] Company. Ah. [pause 3 seconds] Now I used to enjoy the eh, that's 01:01:00all we had. Apart from pictures, the eh football on all Saturday afternoon.

VB: Yeah.

JM: You couldn't play it Sunday.

VB: Right.

JM: Oh no, you couldn't play. No sport at Sunday. All parks were shut and everything. Good grief. We used to sneak a game like. We'd eh-- find a little pitch somewhere.

VB: [laughs]

JM: You know, with a little ball. It couldn't have been that little a ball. We didn't have a big football. And we could have a kick about somewhere like.

VB: Right. [laughs] Aye.

[pause 3 seconds]

JM: Aye.

VB: Did you go to watch football?

JM: Oh, I watched Bury.

VB: Right.

JM: We went to Bury one week, and Bolton another.

VB: Right.

JM: Now eh, you get, we never got big crowds here. Eh, biggest crowds we had were, maybe fifteen thousand. But when we went to Bolton you'd get fifty-five thousand.

VB: Oh. Yes.

JM: So eh-- But we saw all the first-class teams there. But we always say eh, 01:02:00"We only went to see Bolton get beat!" [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: [Oh yeah, we went to?] where you've just come from now, the interchange.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Eh, I don't know you noticed the [garden?] there?

VB: Oh yes. Yes.

JM: Well, the queue there. The bus used to set off. The Bolton bus from outside the pub across the way. And the queue would be right round-- [tape cuts out]

[End of Side B]

[End of Tape One]

[Start of Tape Two]

[Start of Side A]

JM: Special trains. Coming through from Rochdale.

VB: Right.

JM: Right to Bolton. And picking up at the stations along, to Bolton, that were on top of all the buses. You know it eh-- nineteen-- 1950 season I think it was, at Bolton, they'd eh, they close the gates the first five matches.

VB: Uhuh.

JM: They had to close the gates at fifty-five thousand each match. They were all eh, Manchester United, Preston, eh, Everton. Eh, they were all local derby games. Streets used to be absolutely black with people going down, getting off the trains and off the buses. Aye. Now-- nowhere. Think they get a thousand now at Bury.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Thousand.

VB: Sounds like there's a lot to do, in the area.

JM: In fact , Hampden Park, I were up there. Been on three times to Hampden Park. Eh, on the cinder pitch. The cinder one, before they altered it.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And eh, one end there was two of my mates there, and the Scotch crowd were singing, "If you don't like the English, clap your hands!" I said, "What did you do?" They said, "We clapped our hands." [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: [laughing] "We clapped our hands."

VB: Just as well! [laughs] A self-preservation thing that.

JM: [laughs] Cowards! [laughs]

VB: Ah, dear.

JM: Then, another time we was there, and halfway through the match I felt a-- a tap on me shoulder. And I thought, "Oh! What's going on?" I turned round expecting someone to give me one on the nose and a voice said, "Have you got a Woodbine, Jim? I haven't got no Hamlets." [laughs] It were one of the other lads.

VB: Ah.

JM: Aye, Hampden Park

VB: Actually that reminds me of just one thing I was meaning to ask you about the pictures. Were you ever in a fan club or...?

JM: No. No.

VB: No.

JM: No.

VB: Did you ever read the film magazines or anything?

JM: No. None of them.

VB: Yeah.

JM: No. No, it's eh, in fact, you couldn't have afforded them before, before the war like, you know?

VB: Yeah.

JM: No erm, well there were nothing like there is today, the publicity. Like the television gives it all the publicity, doesn't it? For fan clubs and all that. But eh, you couldn't afford the stamp! [laughs]

VB: Yeah.

JM: It was either that or three jam jars! [laughs]

VB: Yeah.

JM: Aye. [pause 5 seconds] Memories are made of this! [laughs]

VB: Yes. Yeah. You've certainly given me a lot to think about in terms of the 01:06:00pictures round here.

JM: It didn't matter whether it were eh-- [pause 3 seconds] And that was one, during the eh, during the summer holidays.

VB: Mhm.

JM: You had a month. And eh, we used to live in the baths in the afternoon. That were only a penny or tuppence. And eh, then that left you free for, you could perhaps go in the pictures at night kind of thing, you know. But all, all day you spent in the baths. You used to come out blue. But eh, aye. They say they don't know what, they have nothing to do now, they say. I can't see that. We had nothing to do but eh, we did something. I think they've got everything now with 01:07:00them TVs and-- I don't know what price cinemas are now. They must be out of this world--

VB: Oh, a lot more than three jam jars. [laughs]

JM: Yeah, yeah. Aye . No. The nearest one to here now is at Hollins. [referring to Warner Cinema, now demolished] And I think it's one of them four, it's one of them big ones with the big eh, bowling at side and--

VB: Yeah.

JM: A big Asda and everything like, you know. But even that's way out! As far as eh, transport. You know? Not like on a main road like this down here.

VB: Yeah.

JM: The other thing with it, you had to walk. You had to walk everywhere. I used to run actually. I used to be always looking down the street. It was a long street, Bolton Street. Where the buses come, where your bus just come, and I 01:08:00used to pick somebody right down and then run like mad to pass them!

VB: [laughs]

JM: I'll beat him! They didn't know that I was gonna beat him.

VB: [laughs]

JM: 'Cause there were no buses.

VB: Ah.

[pause 6 seconds]

JM: Ah that eh, at Scala, they had checks. Clobbering out of a machine, where they used to give you a ticket at the others, these had a kind of a cast iron check. Used to bash down, like a--

VB: Really?

JM: Yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: They must a saved a lot a money on that, because they hadn't to buy roll a tickets. They just kept putting checks back in and--

VB: Right.

JM: And that were it like.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Aye . They all had their own little er, little ways. They tried the 3D. I never saw that either. With the glasses what they tried on the telly the other week.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Well they had a week of that. I don't know why I missed it really, 'cause it was, nobody else tried the experiment, you know. Everybody talked about it like.

VB: Yeah.

JM: How this railway engine was coming towards you and all sorts of things. Aye-- Never saw, never saw that one. [pause 3 seconds]

VB: How did you used to feel when you were in the pictures? When you were a, say a child?

JM: What? Eh--

VB: How did it make you feel to go to the pictures?

JM: [pause 2 seconds] Eh, what with the crowd of us?

VB: Yeah.

JM: Erm, I don't know, really. I couldn't really say.

VB: Were you excited at going out with your friends?

JM: I think it was more or less, that you'd gone somewhere. As I say, you either 01:10:00had to go for a walk round, a gang of you, or go and sit in the pictures and erm eh... Sometimes you weren't interested. There was one lad in particular, he always kept everything going. He always had something to say. Same as Ernie the bouncer or the chucker out, he always used to watch him. And the first sign of anything, "You! Out!", he'd say.

VB: [laughs]

JM: And he was the one. He had protruding-- some-- not very big, protruding bones at side of his knee . And when the girl come round with the chocolates and caramel bars, if somebody bought one, everybody wanted a bit. They'd say, "Here, John. Break us this." And he used to crack them on these bones! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Used to crack the bar. That's what he went to pictures for, to crack caramel bars, I think! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: "Crack this, John!" Boom.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Aye -- That was another thing where the eh, if you had a toilet with the biggest window, they eh-- they'd arrange for. Someone would have no money. Say, "Right, go round the back." Then about four would get up and go to the toilets. Window open. In the bloke'd come and five would come back! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Cadging, cadging in they call this. Cadging in.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Aye. This was about the only one at the bottom, the Empire, where they could do that. The others, I think they were safety conscious, the other ones.

VB: Yeah.

JM: They had more little windows.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Ah yes. [pause 3 seconds] Aye, they were tidy days. Not a care in the world!

VB: Yeah.

JM: Not a care in the world. [pause 3 seconds]. We only saw the good things.

VB: Yeah.

JM: [laughs] [pause 5 seconds] Aye . Ah the war stopped a lot but still, that's the way it went.

VB: Yeah.

[pause 5 seconds]

JM: Trying to think of something else. Can't think.

VB: Yeah.

[pause 5 seconds]

JM: 'Course, you're not surprised, are you like? With the television and all that. There's all these films and things and price of stuff. It's all gone.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Ah, it's all gone by the way.

[pause 6 seconds]

VB: As you say, so many of these films are on, often on late at night and things-- [laughs]

JM: That's right, yeah. Well, when I think now, cinemas, me, like in film, when I was working, coming off, I did shift work thirty year or so. And on-- when I finished on two to ten, I'd sit and watch something on there till about half past one! You know, hoping that when I came off work, there was something on!

VB: Yeah.

JM: And now, I've nothing else to do.

VB: [laughs]

JM: I go to bed about eleven o'clock or half past! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: Now, watch bit of 'Match of the Day' [referring to football highlights] or something. Or eh, you know , boxing match and then away.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And the wife said the other week, she said, "Who watches this thing?" You know when it goes on twenty [four hours]-- I said, "Well, there's people working all night."

VB: That's true.

JM: "And they have little televisions," I said. "And there's some people that can't sleep that watch." Enough to say, "Well, why can't I do that?"

VB: [laughs]

JM: You know? And at half past ten she'd be saying, "Eh, I feel tired. I think I'II go to bed."

VB: [laughs]

JM: There might be a really good thriller on.

VB: Yeah.

JM: You know . It's the same with the daughter and eh, the daughter I said that nearly killed herself trying to laugh. She used to like me being on two to ten. She'd stop up and watch the thriller.

VB: Right.

JM: There were always a thriller on, you know, late on. And now, [laughs] she goes to bed at half past ten! She's working!

VB: [laughs]

JM: She's working with kids. No, it's funny, when you got plenty of time, you 01:15:00don't feel like it.

VB: I always mean to set a video to tape these things but don't always remember.

JM: I don't know how people can fit, I don't know how they can fit a video in between the viewing time.

VB: Yeah.

JM: The most it's been on during the day, has been this last fortnight. Watching snooker.

VB: Right.

JM: You know. All the old people like snooker.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Mostly women really, you know. Ah. But otherwise, same as I say, this last, well, near enough fifty year, I've watched The Robe. 'Cause everybody talks about it. The screen, the wide screen like. [referring to CinemaScope anamorphic widescreen presentation]

VB: Yeah.

JM: The Sound of Music 'cause it was to do with Austria. So, we speculated, the 01:16:00wife and I, so she could have a cry.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Er, Harry Lime. [referring to character from The Third Man] Oh she had a right good cry at that one. 'Cause, eh, we'd only just-- I'd only just got demobbed in 1948. And eh, she came over, only speaking very little English.

VB: Yeah.

JM: But, eh, Harry Lime come on, so we went. Well, good grief. Oh, the hanky came out straight away! The first scene, the hanky came out. Aw, she had a right good hour-and-a-half! [laughs]

VB: [laughs].

JM: I don't think she's cried since.

VB: Ah.

JM: Old Vienna and eh, all the bombed out buildings. I were back there about three year ago.

VB: Mhm.

JM: She had a friend there and she took us all round Vienna. On a tram.

VB: Right.

JM: Just a tram. Went right round. Went there a couple a times. We were there 01:17:00for six weeks with one and then three week with another. At one period. The only thing we were in the, it were a--. well both times actually, but the first time there were four areas. And the place we wanted to go was in the Russian, the Russian area. It was the wife's father's grave.

VB: Right.

JM: And eh, she said, "Could you take a photo?" We had a little box camera, it were one of lad's. The point were, we had to go in the Russian zone. Now with a camera, it weren't-- it were a bit dodgy.

VB: Yeah.

JM: You know. Anyway, he stuck it down his shirt at back, this lad. And we stood round him. And it looked as though he'd big lump in the middle of his back. If anybody had a look they'd think, "Ooh! That's a funny place to have a lump 01:18:00that." And it were this big box camera!

VB: [laughs]

JM: Big box camera. You could see the Harry Lime theme where it eh, he was brilliant.

VB: Ah.

JM: He was brilliant that eh, Orson Wells. Oh aye, she had a right good, she had a right good cry at that. The Sound of Music, I didn't take her again.

VB: [laughs]

JM: [laughs] I couldn't find any more Austrian ones to take her to. [laughs]

VB: Ah. Has your wife still got relatives living in Austria?

JM: Oh yeah.

VB: Yeah.

JM: We go to her sister.

VB: Yeah.

JM: We're going next Thursday actually. And we go every year. I said, "Until she dies," I said, "We're stuck with going to Austria!"

VB: Yeah.

JM: I don't think we could afford to go anywhere else anyway.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Not that it bothers.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Don't matter. Too late in life to bother now, seventy-four. Good grief. And eh, we go to her and then one of the nieces comes up from Yugoslavia.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Right jolly girl. And the three of them get together, for a fortnight. And they never stop! I've talked this morning!

VB: [laughs]

JM: But they never stop! I said, "I'm sure you talk in bed and all!" [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: They have a right good fortnight.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And then, when we go from there, we usually have a couple or three days in Slovenia with the other ones. You can't really call it a village but it's a few houses, we'll put it that way.

VB: Uhuh.

JM: And, I put the wife down as, she's the one that's making them retain the Austrian language. 'Cause they all speak Yugoslavian. Yeah. But when we go, every year, the house is full. I put a notice up one day and a big arrow, "That way".

VB: [laughs]

JM: I said, "Can't speak, that way." They were all in this room. All eh, all jabbering away.

VB: Ah.

JM: And it keeps them all going.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And they all revive their Austrian language.

VB: Yeah. Do you speak any yourself?

JM: And when they go.

VB: Yeah.

JM: When we come away. They all revert back to Yugoslavian and that's it, for another twelve months!

VB: Right.

JM: But wife can't see this. I said, "You do them a world of good."

VB: Yeah.

JM: They worked. They're all there.

VB: Yeah. Do you speak the language yourself?

JM: No. No. As I said eh, I had to-- I spoke Austrian when I were there. I were there two years so I had to pick some up.

VB: Uhuh.

JM: But the point is, my wife, it was more interesting for her to learn English.

VB: Of course.

JM: Than me. And it were no good speaking half and half.

VB: Yeah.

JM: So I just-- But as it happened, it took me thirty years to get back there. My first holiday from getting demobbed to going back, thirty years it took. Made up for it since, like. Keep going back every year.

VB: Yeah.

JM: As I say, "When the glass is empty, they fill it." She says, "That's all you think about that!"

VB: [laughs]

JM: I says, 'Well, I can't talk. I might as well drink!' [laughs]

VB: [laughs] As long as you enjoy yourself as well.

JM: Ah! The only time I read books, or er, is if I go to hospital, eh, and when I go on this fortnight's holiday. Me main ones are Agatha Christie's so, I go round asking everybody, "Have you got some?" I take about half a dozen. And the sister-in-law says, "Professor." [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: That's the only word she knows in English! "Professor." And I'm always whistling. Any tune, I whistle that. She'll say, "Pop group. Pop group." [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: That's the only conversation we have in the fortnight! [laughs]

VB: [laughs]

JM: I don't bother them, they don't bother me. Get out in the sun and just read. Aye. "Professor."

VB: Aye. So that's, you're saying you're away next week?

JM: Next week. We're going for two weeks.

VB: Oh great.

JM: Aye. We've had some good eh-- I always look round for cheap flights. The point is though, we go to Salzburg and have a five-hour train ride. Which I don't bother, [mind] you're seeing the scenery and everything. And eh, [pause 2 seconds] the most we've paid, air fare would be one-hundred-and-nine [pounds]. I couldn't get anything else.

VB: Excellent.

JM: There were one in the paper, one night, forty-nine pounds to Ljubljana.

VB: That's amazing.

JM: In Slovenia.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Eh, stop, two week , three week , four week. So I said , "Right. How's this for three weeks?" So we'd two flights there and I told my mates in the club and they said, "What wing do you sit on?"

VB: Yeah. [laughs]

JM: [laughs]

VB: That's amazing. It really is.

JM: It were Yugoslavia Airlines actually.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And between the pilot and us, was a curtain, no door, a curtain. So, you could hear pilots talking to one another.

VB: [laughs]

JM: I said, "Don't matter, we're here."

VB: Ah.

JM: Eh, sixty-nine pound. Fifty-nine pound. This one's dearest. It's seventy-six pound. This one. She went in eh, three, four, four year ago. And she came home, 01:24:00and her brother-in-law, more or less were dying with cancer. And her sister at eighty, getting a bit too much so, she happened to call in at Lunn Poly [note: a former airline] and eh, they said, if we'd have wanted to go tomorrow, it were forty-nine pound. They said, but, there's some on Sunday, fifty-nine. And she come in. I said, "Have you booked it?" She said, "No." I said, "Why didn't you book it?" "Ooh, I didn't know." I said, "You should have booked the thing!" I said, "Get back up there and get it booked!"

VB: [laughs]

JM: Aye. And as it happened, she were away for three week. And, on the third week this brother-in-law died.

VB: Aw.

JM: With cancer. So I said , "I don 't know how you managed that, but it just worked."

VB: Yeah.

JM: Just worked right for her.

VB: Very lucky, yeah.

JM: I didn't go. As I say, I'd have only been in the road like, you know.

VB: Yeah.

JM: I couldn't speak or help like. So she had three weeks and it just worked, 01:25:00just worked right for her. Everybody, we helped out.

VB: Yeah.

JM: So-- But that's the most we've paid. But eh, ah, sixty-nine, seventy-nine. We had a rush of blood two year ago, we wanted to fly to Vienna.

VB: [gasps]

JM: One-hundred-and-ninety-nine a piece.

VB: Ah.

JM: Mhm. One of the daughters, one of the sons, "Here you are," he said, put two-hundred pound one the table!

VB: Ah.

JM: I said, "We'll, that's all right. That's one fare paid for."

VB: [laughs]

JM: But what a difference. Flying to Vienna to fly to this. Only a two-hour train ride.

VB: Yeah.

JM: We met her friend in Vienna. She were waiting for us at the station. And they go, [mimicking their speaking] "Wa, wa, wa, wa, wa, wa!" Leaning out of window, "Wa wa wa wa wa wa!"

VB: [laughs]

JM: We had her over here for a fortnight. She couldn't get over, couldn't get 01:26:00over the red brick buildings. And eh, the green grass and everything.

VB: Right.

JM: 'Cause she lives right in the centre of Vienna. In, it could be a six-storey grey building.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And I've never noticed up to then that all the buildings there are all plastered.

VB: Mhm.

JM: If you think. If you've been--

VB: I have been to Vienna, actually.

JM: Been to Vienna, well--

VB: Yeah.

JM: Just think, they're all grey.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Grey buildings.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And the first thing she spotted were the red brick. Soon as she stepped out at Manchester she said, "Oh, it's all red brick, isn't it?" I said, "Yeah." And I'd never noticed this.

VB: Yeah. It's when you see--

JM: Then next time I went back I saw all Austria as all plaster!

VB: Yeah.

JM: Everywhere you go, half it falling off!

VB: [laughs]

JM: You've been to Vienna have you?

VB: Yes.

JM: Yeah.

VB: Not, just passing through really. I was there a couple of days.

JM: Aye.

VB: Beautiful city.

JM: We were there for three week.

VB: Yeah.

JM: In the army. And then we went back for six week.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And saw quite a bit. When we went, that eh, we'd to come back to Vienna, to get to Munich, for the plane. So we had to go and stop with this lady, Maria.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And we got there at twelve o'clock. And the real first sit-down we had, were about one o'clock the following morning! And we'd got to be up at five--

VB: Yeah.

JM: To catch train at six! Our feet never touched . In fact, she were that glad to see us, that she brought our, [laughs] a woman looked at me and she went [mimics facial expression]

VB: [laughs]

JM: And, she couldn't wait. She come down the escalator steps with the trolley!

VB: [laughs]

JM: This woman, this Austrian. I said, "You're that excited?" You know?

VB: [laughs]

JM: But as I say , she put us on the, got the tram and the bus. "Where you want to go, Jim?" I said, eh, "[Madalen?] barracks." You know, where I had to live in "Right." On a bus. [Madalen?] barracks. "Where now?" "Schönbrunn". Off to Schönbrunn. "Where now?" "St Stephen's Cathedral." Away, to St Stephen's Cathedral. "Right, we'll have a rest!"

VB: [laughs]

JM: "Better sit down and have a cup a coffee!"

VB: [laughs]

JM: I think that cost ten quid [pounds]!

VB: [gasps]

JM: Oh, the coffee were terrible. One-pound-fifty a little cup. I said, "We won't bother with cake!" [laughs] Five pound a slice [laughs] of cake! Shocking!

VB: Ah.

JM: But eh, and then at night, [pause 2 seconds] wife didn't explain to me, she 01:29:00doesn't even speak to me. We lose contact eh, we lose contact with one another as soon as she meets her sister. That's it for a fortnight!

VB: Yeah.

JM: I'm just, well, she doesn't know I'm there actually.

VB: [laughs]

JM: That's it! Finished. And eh, [pause 2 seconds] I didn't know what we were doing. We gets on the tram. And all of a sudden the fella says, "Opera house!" "Parliament." We were on the scenic thing. I've never said owt [anything]. I'd have just been sit there, me, looking through the window. And she was showing us all the things. I said, "I'd like to see it in daylight!" It was night-time!

VB: [laughs]

JM: Then she took us to her son's eh, night club. And it were one of them downstairs jobs. You know, like in, hidden down a back street.

VB: Right.

JM: I'd have loved to see the clientele round about twelve o'clock tonight!

VB: [laughs]

JM: Yeah. Aye. We'd got to be up at five, following morning, to get to, we were wandering through eh, through Vienna at five o'clock. There were only three of us on the island. Maria, wife and me. Aye. Good grief. She was over here for a fortnight. And she wanted us-- the wife won't. "Oh, I couldn't put on people like that. Couldn't put on." Said, "If people ask you to come, they want you to come. You're not putting on them. They're asking you to," Oh, it's a lot a work. Doesn't matter coming here, doesn't matter about the work here.

VB: [laughs]

JM: Oh. Drive you up the wall it does!

VB: [laughs]

JM: I said, "The lady wants us to go. Maria wants us to go." There's a lot more 01:31:00to Vienna, yet to be seen.

VB: Mhm.

JM: And it's nice to go back where you've been. [pause 3 seconds] That lottery. I'll show her.

VB: Yeah.

JM: I says to her, I said , "That lottery," I said , "That's it." I said , "I'll see them places."

VB: [laughs]

JM: I said, "We'll have that plane." [laughs]

VB: Yeah.

JM: Do you want a sandwich now?

VB: Erm.

JM: You'd make your own. I'd show you the bread and there's meat there and everything.

VB: Erm, I mean thanks for the offer but I think I might actually head back because I'm supposed to be in Manchester again for this afternoon. I'm maybe best just to head back.

JM: Ah. Well, your best bet then for that is to catch the bus, takes you to the same place.

VB: Right.

JM: Catch the bus at the bottom here.

VB: Okay.

JM: And there's at least three buses, gets you to the centre.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And you're eh, you've got your tram.

VB: That sounds great.

JM: There's no rush like.

VB: Yeah. I should actually maybe be heading off.

JM: Aye. The tram takes about what, twenty minutes? Something like that. Half-an-hour.

VB: Very fast .

JM: Very fast.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Well, it's a gift for us is that.

VB: It's great, I know. Right into the centre of the town.

JM: Is there anything else now? [laughs]

VB: Em, well actually, what I'm thinking is, we've been talking about so much, and so many different things have come up, that I'm sure what's gonna happen is I'II be halfway back to Glasgow and thinking, I wish I'd asked this and that.

JM: If there's anything else you want, just send a questionnaire or whatever you want.

VB: Yeah.

JM: Or anything.

VB: Well--

JM: No trouble at all, love.

VB: Yeah. I'm going back to Glasgow next week and then I'm gonna be coming back down in a few weeks time. So--

JM: All we're off is next Thursday.

VB: Yeah.

JM: For two weeks.

VB: Yeah.

JM: And after that--

VB: Would that be okay?

JM: Any time you want to call. Any time you want to call. If you think of 01:33:00anything else.

VB: Yeah.

JM: You think of something.

VB: That would be great.

JM: No trouble at all. Any time you want.

VB: It's been really good of you to talk to me at such length about the cinema.

JM: [laughs] Saves a lot of writing, you know!

VB: Yeah. Thanks very much.

JM: Imagine me with one a them. Ooh, I've have a ball! [tape cuts out]

[End of interview]